Imani (52) and Michael (65) have been married for 24 years—and they’re drowning in nearly $126,000 of consumer debt despite earning over $250,000 a year.
Imani, a disciplined attorney who tracks every dollar, feels trapped by Michael’s unchecked spending on electronics and his laid-back approach to money. She dreams of travel, freedom, and a life that finally feels generous, while he insists everything’s fine as long as the bills get paid.
With resentment growing and Imani nearing her breaking point, Ramit challenges them to face the truth: Can they pay off their debt, rebuild trust, and start enjoying life again—or are they too stuck in old patterns to change?
A special thanks to Facet for sponsoring this episode. Right now, Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members. And if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days, they’ll add $300 to your brokerage account. Head to facet.com/ramit to see which membership—Core, Plus, or Complete—is right for you.
(Ramit is not a member of Facet, and he has an incentive to endorse Facet as he has an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are his own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.)
In this episode we uncover:
Why Imani regrets combining finances after 20 years of marriage
How Michael’s promise to “put the money back” reveals a lifetime of avoidance
The stark contrast between Michael’s military discipline and total lack of structure at home
What happens when one partner outgrows the other in ambition, discipline, and self-development
Why Imani admits she’s embarrassed to be in massive debt at her age
Michael’s habit of buying cars and electronics to celebrate milestones
How their $268,000 income still leaves them feeling broke, anxious, and behind
Why Imani clings to control and spreadsheets while Michael tunes out completely
How both partners confront the question: Can they rebuild trust and create structure before it’s too late?
Chapters:
(00:00:00) “Did you go to Best Buy again?”
(00:17:34) “I don’t think I’ve ever planned anything in my life”
(00:24:43) “Every time we had a kid, he bought a car”
(00:36:48) Ramit breaks down their numbers
(00:44:33) “We make way too much to be this stressed about money”
(00:56:21) “I don’t want to do life by myself”
(01:10:51) Can a couple this far apart still find common ground?
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Links Mentioned In This Episode:
Join my Money Coaching program for monthly help: https://iwt.com/moneycoaching
Transcript
Download the full transcript PDF
[00:00:00] Ramit: What do you think about this debt?
[00:00:01] Michael: It is terrible.
[00:00:02] Imani: It’s frustrating and sad, and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight.
[00:00:06] Ramit: Are you angry?
[00:00:07] Imani: I’m angry at Michael. I’m angry at myself.
[00:00:11] Michael: My relationship with money is not a good relationship.
[00:00:14] Imani: He’s at the point now where he should be able to retire, but he can’t.
[00:00:18] Michael: I don’t think I’ve ever planned anything in my life.
[00:00:20] Imani: I don’t want to work till I’m 75. I also want us to be able to travel and live our Rich Lives. At this age, I thought we’d already be there.
[00:00:31] Ramit: Do you believe that you’ll die with your debt?
[00:00:33] Michael: It’s going to be a stretch.
[00:00:34] Ramit: There was a time, one time, where I considered taking my purse and my keys and walking out. I’m at my wits end. I don’t want to keep doing this.
[Narration]
[00:00:47] Ramit: Imagine making great money but still being in debt. Where’s the money going? Why are we in this situation? Why do we feel trapped by our debt? Today we’re going to dive into a story that is very familiar for millions of couples, high income, high stress, and no real plan.
[00:01:05] Listen to this line from the application. “He has run up credit cards, buying electronics. He has little to no retirement saved, and we make way too much to be so stressed about money. I do not know how much longer I can keep doing this.” When I see phrases like, “I don’t know how much longer I can keep doing this,” that is a sign the stakes are very high.
[00:01:28] Today I’m speaking with Imani, 52 years old, and Michael, who is 65. They’ve been married for 24 years, but they have not spent a single one of those years aligned about money. What’s interesting is that they’ve worked with money coaches in the past, yet they keep finding themselves stuck in the same cycle.
[00:01:48] Michael overspending and avoiding, and Imani trying to take control of their finances. I’m about to look at their numbers, but first, I want to hear from you. When was the last time you were not on the same page with your partner? And tell me the specifics. I want to see them in the comments. I read every one. Was it not agreeing where to eat out or how much you should keep in your checking account? Let me know in the comments the last time you were not on the same page with your finance.
[00:02:14] Now, I’m looking at their conscious spending plan, which breaks down their key numbers, including their net worth, income, and where they spend their money. It’s the same tool I use in every episode.
[00:02:24] Assets, $603,315. Investments, $770,000. Keep in mind, Michael is 65 years old, already at retirement age. Savings, 8,523. Debt, $601,000 and over $100,000 of that debt is high interest debt. Net worth, $780,000.
[00:02:49] All of this is raising a lot of questions. So let’s get started with Imani and Michael.
[Interview]
[00:02:55] Ramit: Imani, you mentioned in your application that you’ve been married for 24 years, and you said something that really caught my eye. You said, “I want to separate our finances. In fact, I am so upset that I suggested we combine them four years ago.” Why do you feel that way?
[00:03:19] Imani: I feel like we spoke better or related better when the finances weren’t combined. I feel like we are both all in the account all the time. Like it’ll be like, “Why is there a $.95 charge.” And he’ll ask me, “Did you go to the spa?” You know what I mean? Like part of it is taking away the autonomy of the other person. And so it feels like I’m monitoring an adult. That’s not fair for me to try to be his mother.
[00:03:50] Originally, we did have separate accounts, and then we had a joint account for bills. About four years ago, I was like, “We just need all the paychecks to go into one account, and that way we can monitor and get control over our finances.” And then what I saw was out of control, and so it stressed me out.
[00:04:08] Ramit: Wow. Okay. I have lots to unpack there. Michael, what’s your reaction to what Imani just said?
[00:04:15] Michael: It seemed to be less complicated when they were separate because it was always like, well, I know certain things to be taken care of, so I can’t spend somewhere else.
[00:04:31] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:31] Michael: So I had to make sure that the money was there. When it became a joint account, it’s like, yeah, I can go here and buy this and buy that because there’s money in the account.
[00:04:43] Ramit: Would you say that when you combined your accounts that the spending got sloppy?
[00:04:48] Imani: Very, very.
[00:04:50] Michael: Yeah, it did.
[00:04:51] Ramit: Okay. So just to ask the obvious question, why don’t you just separate it?
[00:05:00] Michael: We’ve discussed that, separating it.
[00:05:04] Ramit: And?
[00:05:05] Michael: But we didn’t come up with a concrete plan as, as far as when are we going to do it, how we’re going to do it.
[00:05:12] Imani: Yeah.
[00:05:13] Ramit: All right. So it’s still on the table to separate your finances.
[00:05:17] Imani: Yeah.
[00:05:17] Michael: Yes.
[00:05:17] Imani: But when you hear about marriages, it’s like it’s supposed to be a coming together, and you’re supposed to have things together. And I have friends who have joint accounts and everything goes well. With us, it is not.
[00:05:33] Ramit: And of course, if you were to separate your finances, I suspect things would not magically fix themselves. I suspect it would open up a whole new can of worms because a lot of ways it’s a symptom, probably. We’ll figure that out a little bit more. So Imani, you mentioned that sometimes Michael will say he’s looking at the expenses. He goes, “Did you go to this spa?”
[00:05:57] Imani: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:58] Ramit: What is the next sentence after that?
[00:06:02] Imani: From him or from me?
[00:06:03] Ramit: You’ll say, “Yes, I went to this spa.” Right?
[00:06:06] Imani: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:07] Ramit: And then what does he say?
[00:06:09] Imani: Nothing.
[00:06:10] Ramit: Oh, so it’s just a question like, “Hey, did you go to this spa? Did you buy this thing?” That’s it.
[00:06:14] Imani: And it usually comes when I’m asking him about, “Did you go to Best Buy again?”
[00:06:19] Ramit: Oh. Oh, okay. Let me flip that then. So you asked, “Did you go to Best Buy?” And then Michael, what do you say to that?
[00:06:26] Michael: I said, “Yeah, I went to Best Buy.”
[00:06:29] Ramit: Okay. And then?
[00:06:30] Michael: I’ll leave it there.
[00:06:32] Ramit: Okay. And then how do you respond? Why am I doing this? Just have the conversation in front of me. Go ahead. Imani?
[00:06:38] Imani: What’s this 1.52 of Best Buy?
[00:06:40] Michael: I went to Best Buy to buy some SSD drives for my computer.
[00:06:46] Imani: Did you need more SSD drives?
[00:06:48] Michael: I needed one with more capacity, so I bought one that was on sale, and I got a bigger SSD.
[00:06:55] Imani: But don’t you have like 10?
[00:06:58] Michael: Yes, I do. Well, most of them are filled up with different documents and data.
[00:07:03] Imani: Yeah, but that wasn’t in the budget.
[00:07:06] Michael: Yeah, I know. I’ll get the money back in there.
[00:07:10] Imani: How are you going to get the money back in it? The budget is based on the budget.
[00:07:14] Michael: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Imani: You can’t put the money back.
[00:07:16] Michael: I’ll make sure it gets back.
[00:07:18] Imani: Okay.
[00:07:19] Ramit: Whoa. Okay. That was quite interesting. What just happened in that conversation, Michael?
[00:07:29] Michael: I would say that I probably deflected.
[00:07:32] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:33] Michael: I said that I was going to make sure the money get back into the account, but I didn’t tell Imani how it was going to get back into the account.
[00:07:40] Ramit: I agree. And did you actually have a plan for how to get the money back in the account?
[00:07:44] Michael: I had a good range of dates that I could put the money back.
[00:07:47] Ramit: Okay. And did the money get put back in the account?
[00:07:52] Michael: I think it did.
[00:07:54] Ramit: What?
[00:07:55] Michael: I can’t say for sure.
[00:07:57] Ramit: What?
[00:07:58] Michael: Right.
[00:07:58] Ramit: That doesn’t sound like a plan to me.
[00:08:00] Michael: I agree.
[00:08:01] Ramit: All right. All right, fine. And then what else do you notice about the conversation, the chess pieces? What was each person’s role in that conversation?
[00:08:12] Michael: I felt like I was under a microscope.
[00:08:16] Ramit: Hmm. That’s an interesting metaphor. So if you are under a microscope, then what is Imani?
[00:08:24] Michael: She is the investigator.
[00:08:27] Ramit: Oh wow. That’s powerful. Okay, so you have the investigator and the investigated in that example.
[00:08:37] Michael: Right.
[00:08:37] Ramit: Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Imani, how about you? Zoom up. Analyze it.
[00:08:43] Imani: For me it’s frustration with Michael spending particularly at Best Buy.
[00:08:49] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:50] Imani: And he told me that he needed more of something he already had.
[00:08:54] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:56] Imani: So it was my frustration at Michael for buying something that he already has multiples of that I don’t see the need for, that wasn’t in the budget. Here we go again, buying things in excess. And to me, there’s no such thing as putting money back.
[00:09:11] Ramit: Okay. What would you say each person’s role was?
[00:09:15] Imani: I felt like the mama, the parent.
[00:09:22] Ramit: Okay. Yeah.
[00:09:23] Imani: Or the one who watches over the budget. And then you have Michael in the role of, I’m going to get what I want. I’m going to spend and get what I want because I make money, and I’m going to spend it.
[00:09:34] Ramit: Mm. Is that true? He does make money.
[00:09:38] Imani: He does.
[00:09:40] Ramit: So if he’s making money, just out of curiosity, can he spend it on a SSD drive?
[00:09:46] Imani: Sure, he could spend it on– but does he need 12 SSD drives?
[00:09:52] Ramit: I don’t know. I don’t particularly care either. I’m asking, is this a joint issue? Is it coming from joint money, or is it an individual issue, in which case, if he wants to spend it on garbage, he could spend it on garbage as far as I’m concerned. What do you think?
[00:10:11] Imani: It’s a joint. In my mind it’s the joint because we decided that we would each take a certain amount of cash out of the account, and he takes the cash out and spends the money.
[00:10:22] Ramit: Oh, wow. Oh, wow.
[00:10:23] Imani: That’s my issue.
[00:10:24] Ramit: Okay. I got you.
[00:10:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:26] Ramit: Can I tell you what I observed from your conversation, which I thought was very revealing?
[00:10:31] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:32] Ramit: So many things happened in 60 seconds. That’s why I love seeing the actual conversations. First off, the fact that Imani, you were like, “What’s this charge?” Already red flag number one for me that one partner is looking over the other’s shoulder. Not blaming you at all. I know that it happens in reverse as well.
[00:10:54] But if one person has to spend money unexpectedly from the joint account, it’s their responsibility to actually bring it up. So that’s already like, hmm, that’s an interesting thing. Next up, it turned into some Inspector Gadget type of– Imani became the SSD investigator. Are you sure? How many terabytes are we talking about?
[00:11:17] I was like, “I don’t really think that’s what we are going for here.” I get the sense maybe– I don’t think you’re an SSD investigator. And then we had Michael who quickly was like– you could see the tone, Michael. It was a bit of like a young boy who’s got caught doing something.
[00:11:39] And it was like, “Yeah, I did go there.” No further explanation. Just going to stop and hope that nobody pays attention. And then I’ll put the money back. What’s that? Again, it’s a very boyish sort of answer. You know what I mean? We’re talking about a grown man here.
[00:11:56] Michael: Basically, that’s how our conversations go.
[00:12:00] Ramit: Yeah, I know. That’s why I’m here.
[00:12:04] Michael: Right. Exactly. Yeah. And that’s why we’re here too, because it’s in life the same conversation.
[Narration]
[00:12:10] Ramit: What we just saw play out was the parent-child dynamic, which in my opinion is one of the most toxic patterns in a relationship around money. In my new book, Money for Couples, I break down exactly why it is so toxic. Your partner is not a child. Treating them like one will never get them to act like an adult.
[00:12:29] The parent-child dynamic also creates resentment on both sides. The parent feels burdened and exhausted. The child feels controlled and infantilized. And this dynamic creates ripple effects. The dynamic almost never stays just in the financial realm. It seeps into other parts of the relationship. It erodes trust and intimacy.
[00:12:50] I even call it sexual kryptonite because it’s very difficult to feel attracted to your partner when you feel like you are parenting them. If you cannot get on the same page with money, I recommend you pick up a copy of Money for Couples and use the word for word scripts in the book. It’s also available as an audiobook.
[00:13:10] But let’s zoom out now. This isn’t just about roles or dynamics. There’s also real numbers to consider here. Michael is 65. They’ve amassed $600,000 in total debt and a 100k of that, over 100k is consumer debt, like credit cards, personal loans, car loans. That type of debt typically carries higher interest rates, which means it can really snowball fast.
[00:13:32] We’re going to untangle the specifics of their debt when we get to their conscious spending plan, but here’s what I can already see. Imani has a strong need for control. It’s actually no surprise that she’s frustrated, maybe even fed up. Honestly, if I were in her situation, I would want control, and I would be angry too.
[00:13:50] What’s more surprising is that this debt is something she’s been trying to get control over for years. She’s worked with several money coaches, and yet nothing has changed. So what happened? Why didn’t those approaches work? We’re going to find out right after this.
[Interview]
[00:14:08] Ramit: Okay. I understand that you have spoken to money coaches in the past. What was your experience with them?
[00:14:14] Imani: We got a system, like an Excel file and a system to set these things up, but the work to do to maintain them, I felt like I was doing most of the getting that done. We were supposed to set up money dates, times where we come together and go over the finances.
[00:14:37] And the few times we did it, it was me at the computer, Michael, sitting on the bed or on the counter or on the couch, and him looking up, saying, “What you need?” As opposed to us both being engaged and me going through numbers and then getting frustrated. Part of it is, I’ll say, Michael, where are your numbers? We need to meet and go over budget.
[00:15:03] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:04] Imani: I’m going to get the numbers.
[00:15:05] Michael: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Imani: I’m for the numbers for the last eight weeks. Until we did the conscious spending plan, I have been waiting on the numbers for two months.
[00:15:13] Ramit: Mm.
[00:15:14] Michael: Very true. Very true.
[00:15:16] Ramit: This is a general pattern at home, Imani, like you’re driving things at home and you’re pulling him along?
[00:15:23] Imani: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:24] Ramit: Michael, what do you think?
[00:15:27] Michael: I would say that I was more reactive than proactive, and I don’t know that we ever set any rules, engagement on how we’re going to attack. Once we went to the counseling session. We never had any rules, so without having any rules, if we didn’t do something, the rule was broken. There were no consequences.
[00:15:47] Ramit: Hmm. That’s interesting. There were no consequences if the rules were broken. What would be an example of a rule being broken?
[00:15:54] Michael: A rule will be like, okay, we’re going to meet Wednesday at 6:00 PM, and we’re going to talk about how we’re tracking our budget.
[00:16:00] Ramit: Yes. Are you generally reactive in life versus being proactive?
[00:16:04] Michael: I would say in my professional life, I can’t be reactive. I had to be proactive. When I’m at home, I decompress, and I don’t have those same rules or restraints.
[00:16:23] Ramit: Do you think long term?
[00:16:28] Michael: I do not.
[00:16:31] Ramit: Okay.
[00:16:32] Michael: And Imani might find it surprising. I don’t think I’ve ever planned anything in my life.
[00:16:41] Ramit: Tell me more. Imani’s nodding. Tell me more, Michael. That’s quite an admission.
[00:16:45] Michael: I have a vision or I have a idea, and I just do it.
[00:16:52] Ramit: What does that mean?
[00:16:54] Michael: There’s no step. Well, I need to do this step first, and did I need to do this step second, or I need to do this step third. In my professional life, I do that. In my personal life, absolutely not.
[00:17:06] Ramit: Imani, would you agree?
[00:17:08] Imani: Yes.
[00:17:09] Ramit: Okay. And how about for you?
[00:17:11] Imani: I’m proactive everywhere.
[00:17:14] Ramit: Okay. All right. Would you agree with that, Michael?
[00:17:17] Michael: Yes, definitely. With that said, it’s at the point where I have to be proactive. I got to take action.
[00:17:25] Ramit: Or what?
[00:17:28] Michael: Either she’s going to say, “That’s it. I had enough.” Or she’s just going to tune out and do her own thing.
[00:17:38] Ramit: 24 years married.
[00:17:40] Michael: Yeah.
[00:17:42] Ramit: Imani, would you agree, the stakes are pretty high?
[00:17:46] Imani: Yeah, absolutely. I can’t keep doing this. I refuse because he’s at the point now where he should be able to retire, but he can’t because I cannot financially do all of this by myself. There’s a pretty significant age difference between us. I’m at the age where I want to look at early retirement. He’s already at retirement. I want to look at early retirement. I don’t want to work till I’m 75. I don’t. I don’t want to do that.
[00:18:19] And I also want us to be able to travel and live our Rich Lives. And at this age, I thought we’d already be there. I feel like everything I’m behind. We’re behind because– I know you’re not supposed to look at other people and other people’s lives, but we know too much to be in this situation.
[00:18:43] This is just damn and frustrating. I pick myself, and I’m mad at myself because I feel like the loss of control got us here. Growing up, I was known to be so cheap that I pinched the copper off a penny. That’s what my mama used to say. I knew where everything was. I never went into debt and all that stuff. And then the last several years, it’s just been out of control. And I’m so sad about it.
[00:19:11] Ramit: Okay. Are you angry?
[00:19:14] Imani: Very.
[00:19:15] Ramit: Who are you angry at?
[00:19:16] Imani: I’m angry at Michael. I’m angry at myself.
[00:19:21] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Can I ask the tough question here. What makes both of you think that this time will be any different?
[00:19:31] Imani: I’m hopeful that it’ll be different because Michael has a tendency to listen to the other person advice. I can say the exact same things that you’re going to say, but he’s not going to hear them.
[00:19:48] Michael: Mm.
[00:19:49] Imani: If you say them, he’ll hear them. And Michael, please, I’m not trying to be mean, but that’s how it feels to me. It’s like if the Internet says it, or if you see it in a book, it could be the same thing that I already said.
[00:20:01] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:02] Ramit: Who the [Bleep] listen to the people on the Internet? Have you seen the comments I get?
[00:20:06] Michael: Yeah, right.
[00:20:07] Ramit: First thing I do is I go, “Whatever you said, I’m doing the opposite of that.”
[00:20:11] Imani: Michael gets his through the Internet.
[00:20:14] Ramit: I take your point. Michael, why is that? You’re nodding your head. Why is that?
[00:20:18] Michael: Man, that’s a tough one. I spent some time in armed forces. I spent a lot of time in the armed forces. For a long time, my life was very regimented. I knew where I was going to be all the time, when, where, how, all of that. When I got out, that started to slip a little bit, where it’s like I’ve been living this rigid life.
[00:20:41] And so now I have some levity to go to the left or to the right. Yeah, we tried that, and that didn’t work. We tried this, and this didn’t work. So to your point, what’s going to be different this time. For me what’s different this time, I see the effect on what this is having on Imani as far as our finances.
[00:21:00] Ramit: What effect?
[00:21:02] Michael: I can see that she’s really stressed out about it.
[00:21:04] Ramit: Michael, do you ask Imani for advice on money ever?
[00:21:10] Michael: Do I ask her for advice? I don’t think so.
[00:21:14] Ramit: Yeah. Do you ever ask her for advice?
[00:21:18] Michael: No.
[00:21:19] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:20] Michael: I can only speak for myself on this. My relationship with money has been is not a good relationship.
[00:21:27] Ramit: Hmm.
[00:21:29] Michael: That it was something that was never discussed when I was growing up. Even when I was in the military and I was making a steady income, it is just something that there was no coaching, no learning on. So it just carried over from then after I got out of the military.
[00:21:48] Ramit: Hmm. Take me back. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?
[00:21:53] Michael: Absolutely nothing.
[00:21:54] Ramit: Would you say your family was middle-class, low, upper-middle, lower-middle? What would you describe it as?
[00:22:00] Michael: I would say lower-middle.
[00:22:01] Ramit: Okay.
[00:22:02] Michael: I was raised mostly by my grandmother. I didn’t have a want for anything. Even though money wasn’t discussed, I always had what I needed when I needed it.
[00:22:14] Ramit: When did you go into the military?
[00:22:17] Michael: I was 18.
[00:22:18] Ramit: Okay, so straight out of high school you went to the military.
[00:22:21] Michael: Mm-hmm. I actually pre-enlisted before I graduated from high school. I knew that my heart of hearts where I grew up at, that I wasn’t going to stay. If I would’ve stayed there two years, three years, I would’ve got caught up in drugs, and I would be dead.
[00:22:35] Ramit: Really? What part of the country, if you don’t mind my asking?
[00:22:39] Michael: St. Louis area.
[00:22:40] Ramit: Okay, got it. All right. And did you have other family members who had been in the military?
[00:22:45] Michael: Yes. My uncle, he served in the Navy.
[00:22:48] Ramit: Okay, cool. So you signed up. You go in. What was your first impression when you got there?
[00:22:55] Michael: The first time that I had ever had broccoli.
[00:23:03] Ramit: And what’d you think?
[00:23:05] Michael: I am like, “Oh, this is a neat food. I never had this before.” It was eye opening for me.
[00:23:14] Ramit: Mm-hmm. I bet.
[00:23:15] Michael: Because any military person, basic military training, you’re in basic training with people from all over the world, all different aspects of life.
[00:23:26] Ramit: What surprised you the most in those first few weeks?
[00:23:32] Michael: The rigor and the discipline. During my career in military, everything was very regimented. Nothing could get out of control. Or you would be disciplined for it.
[00:23:47] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:48] Michael: It was very regimented. You knew where you’re going to be, when you’re going to be there, how long you going to be there. And it was like clockwork. So that was very refreshing.
[00:23:59] Ramit: You liked it.
[00:24:00] Michael: I loved it.
[00:24:01] Ramit: Wow. What did you love about it?
[00:24:06] Michael: I didn’t have to worry about where I was going to live, what I was going to eat, what I was going to put on. If I had money, I knew I was going to get paid every two weeks regardless of the situation. So in a way, it’s like being, I won’t say babysitted, because believe me, being in the military is nothing like being babysitted. But there were things that I didn’t have to worry about that my civilian counterparts have to worry about.
[00:24:41] Ramit: Right.
[00:24:42] Michael: And then there was the opportunity to get educated, travel, and make money as I progress through the ranks.
[00:24:50] Ramit: Okay.
[00:24:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:52] Ramit: And did you plan to stay for a long time?
[00:24:55] Michael: I did not.
[00:24:57] Ramit: Whoa.
[00:24:57] Michael: I did not. I did not. My plan was to do four, eight years, save my money, and then go to college. But I got to travel, live in different parts of the country ,and live in different parts of the world. Before I was 30 years old, I had lived in three different foreign countries.
[00:25:15] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:16] Michael: So I saw a lot of the world.
[00:25:17] Ramit: See it with Imani?
[00:25:18] Michael: No, this was before we met. This was when I was in the military. After eight years, I was in for the long haul.
[00:25:28] Ramit: How long did you stay in total?
[00:25:30] Michael: Stayed in 20 years and 21 days.
[00:25:33] Ramit: Whoa. Is there something about 20 years.
[00:25:36] Michael: That is when you’re eligible during my period for retirement from the military.
[00:25:42] Ramit: Great. Okay, great. All right. How long ago did you retire?
[00:25:47] Michael: I retired in 1998. A whole different lifetime ago.
[00:25:51] Ramit: Wow.
[00:25:52] Michael: Right.
[00:25:53] Ramit: No kidding. What’d you do after you retired?
[00:25:56] Michael: I went into manufacturing. Basically the same skills and training that I got in the military, I transfer over to civilian sector. I went into manufacturing, and I have been in manufacturing since 1998.
[00:26:13] Ramit: Wow. What’d you think about the fact that as a civilian you didn’t have that structure that you used to have in the military?
[00:26:22] Michael: It’s interesting that you asked that because I remember my first civilian job, and I won’t mention the company, but I had a manager, when he did my performance review, he said that his frustration with me was that I worked very well off a list.
[00:26:39] Ramit: Hmm.
[00:26:40] Michael: And I was like, “Wait, what?”
[00:26:42] Ramit: It’s like a fish being told you swim in water. You’re like, “Huh?”
[00:26:46] Michael: I was like, “Wait, what? And basically what he was trying to tell me is I need to be more, I guess, creative in a way.
[00:26:54] Ramit: Hmm.
[00:26:55] Michael: And I got it.
[00:26:56] Ramit: Would there be another word there? He needed you to be more– maybe it starts with a P, P-R-O.
[00:27:04] Michael: P-R-O, proactive?
[00:27:06] Ramit: What do you think?
[00:27:08] Michael: I think so. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:09] Imani: Yeah.
[00:27:09] Ramit: Imani, what do you say?
[00:27:11] Imani: I agree. I think that that is exactly right, that I could see him coming out being listless list-driven. But he talks a lot about he had to be so regimented when he was in the military. And now that he’s out, no structure. It’s just a hot mess express.
[00:27:32] Ramit: What’d you do with the money that you made in the military?
[00:27:35] Michael: I will tell you that I had a good time.
[00:27:38] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:39] Michael: I did buy a couple of vehicles. Right after she would give birth, I go buy another vehicle. This was after I got out the military.
[00:27:49] Ramit: So you had two sons, and then you’re like, “I’m going to go buy a car.”
[00:27:52] Michael: I guess.
[00:27:54] Ramit: Okay.
[00:27:54] Michael: Nothing that was planned, nothing that was discussed.
[00:27:56] Ramit: What? Did you just walk in and just buy it that day?
[00:28:00] Michael: Basically, yes.
[00:28:01] Ramit: Holy [Bleep]. This is blowing my mind. I never bought a car. When I was growing up, it took us one week to buy a car, and that’s when we knew the car we wanted. My dad would take us in there. We’d freaking have breakfast at the dealership. I’m not kidding. We would sit there. We’d negotiate, and then we’d literally go home and come back the next day. It was a family affair– all of us, the whole week.
[00:28:24] Michael: That’s amazing. Imani would call me and ask me where I was at. I’d be like, “I’m at the dealership.” And then I wear a click.
[00:28:34] Ramit: Really?
[00:28:35] Michael: Yes.
[00:28:37] Ramit: So this is 20 years ago. 20 to 25 years ago.
[00:28:41] Michael: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:43] Imani: Yes. Every time we made a major life event, like he said, every time we had a kid, he’d drive up in a new car. Look what I got.
[00:28:53] Ramit: What is that? What’s the connection? Is it like a celebration?
[00:28:56] Imani: I don’t know.
[00:28:59] Michael: I guess I use it as a celebration. Hey, we got a new son, so we’re going to get a nice vehicle to take new son home, man.
[00:29:08] Ramit: I prefer a Baskin Robbins cake.
[00:29:10] Michael: Yeah,yeah,yeah.
[00:29:11] Ramit: 35 bucks. When I was a kid, we could never afford it. Let’s get it now. Fantastic.
[00:29:16] Michael: Hindsight being 2020, I agree.
[Narration]
[00:29:19] Ramit: Every so often I visit a military base and speak to them about personal finances and careers. I remember one year they had this incredibly detailed minute-by-minute schedule. 0545, assemble for PT. 0545 to 0555, walk to PT. 0600 to 0700, PT, and so on. I loved it. I love the details, the logistics that had to happen in order for it to work that clearly. But I can also imagine what living in that kind of environment would’ve done to me long-term.
[00:29:50] And this is a classic example of how a rigid structured environment like the military can shape someone’s mindset long after they leave. You get a steady paycheck, housing is covered. You know exactly where to be and when. There’s a system for everything, including your money.
[00:30:08] But when you leave that structure behind, there’s a major gap. And a lot of people simply do not replace that structure with anything. They go from a fully controlled environment to complete freedom. That word freedom. Note how we describe it in America, as if freedom is always a good thing. And that freedom can be overwhelming.
[00:30:25] I suspect that’s what we’re seeing with Michael. He says he’s proactive at work, but at home he checks out. And because money was always handled for him through benefits and automatic deposits and the TSP, he never really had to build the skills to manage it himself.
[00:30:39] Now he’s out of the military, 65 years old, and in financial trouble, and Michael is not the only retired veteran dealing with this. According to American Consumer Credit counseling, nearly three quarters of military families carry credit card debt, and they’re twice as likely as civilians to owe $10,000 or more.
[00:30:58] Meanwhile, Imani is handling all of the day-to-day finances, and she’s looking at her own future realizing I might not be able to retire because he’s not stepping up. This is what happens when someone avoids building a system of their own. The default becomes, I’ll just wait for someone else to handle it.
[00:31:16] And in a marriage that simply does not work, or in my opinion, it should not work. They’re not 25 years old, by the way. They don’t have decades to figure this out. It has to happen now. And that is why we’re going to get into the actual numbers right after this.
[Interview]
[00:31:32] Ramit: What was it like to create the conscious spending plan together?
[00:31:37] Imani: All over me. This is what it was like. It was right here. This is how we did it.
[00:31:41] Ramit: Whoa. Wow. Whoa. Okay. Pull that out. So I’m going to describe it for people listening, not watching. Imani is pulling out one of these big pieces of butcher paper, and it’s got a lot of categories and numbers, a lot. This is like four feet high. It’s quite large and filled out. A lot of numbers. Okay. Which I’m seeing gross, net. I’m seeing assets and Apple credit card, etc. Okay. So you did it all on paper. Okay. I don’t mind. Everybody does it their own way.
[00:32:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:11] Ramit: Did you do it together?
[00:32:12] Imani: Yes.
[00:32:13] Michael: Yeah, we did.
[00:32:14] Imani: I guess he was going slower. I sometimes can get a little frustrated, and I want things to move faster. And so I’ll just take it and do it. I’m like, “We just need to get this over with.” But I was trying to be deliberate about letting him write the things down and see.
[00:32:32] Michael: I could tell you how I felt, Ramit. So as we’re putting all the categories in there and putting the numbers in there, things kept popping in my head. Oh, I forgot about that. Oh, I forgot I got this coin set over here. Or I forgot that I have this account over here with this Bitcoin in it.
[00:32:47] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:49] Michael: So at some point, for me, it got frustrating because it was like, I got all this thing, but I don’t have any control over it. It’s just there.
[00:32:59] Ramit: Do you mean you have extra money that you were not accounting for or extra expenses?
[00:33:04] Michael: I have these accounts set up that I have money in. Until I go into that account, I remember like, oh, I forgot I had money in there. I’ll open up a Bitcoin account or a small stop trading account. The money will be there, and I’ll just put it there and park it.
[00:33:25] Ramit: All right. Let’s take a look at the CSP. All right. Imani, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for the entire box please?
[00:33:39] Imani: Assets, 603,315. Investments, 770,031. Savings, 8,523. Debt, 601,468. Total net worth, 780,401.
[00:34:03] Ramit: What do you think about those numbers?
[00:34:05] Imani: Terrible.
[00:34:06] Ramit: Why do you I say that?
[00:34:08] Imani: I feel like the investment number should be higher at our age. I feel like the debt number should be lower– much, much lower. I feel better than I felt. I thought it was going to be close to negative.
[00:34:24] Ramit: Quite a big difference between negative and $780,000.
[00:34:29] Imani: I know.
[00:34:29] Michael: I had the opposite reaction. I don’t think that I vocalized it with Imani. When I saw that number, I went, “Damn. Now if I get rid of this, or if I wouldn’t have done this, our net worth will be of a million dollars easy.”
[00:34:46] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:47] Michael: How can I get rid of some of the excess that we have in our household to push that number up?
[00:34:55] Ramit: Whoa. Okay. I’m already seeing you’re going to make my job easier for me. I like that. Let’s take a look at the gross monthly income. This time, Michael, I’d like for you to give me the combined gross monthly income number please.
[00:35:13] Michael: Okay, so gross monthly income number is $22,404.
[00:35:20] Ramit: All right. So combined the two of you make $268,000 a year.
[00:35:25] Michael: That’s a lot of money that we could be leveraging better than we have been.
[00:35:31] Ramit: All right. Michael says it’s a lot of money. What do you say, Imani?
[00:35:34] Imani: It is. It’s less than it was.
[00:35:36] Ramit: Uh-oh.
[00:35:37] Imani: I took a pay cut.
[00:35:39] Ramit: Are we getting into depressing time already? I thought we were just talking about this number. What the hell’s happening right now? Is this a lot of money or not?
[00:35:47] Imani: It is a lot of money.
[00:35:48] Michael: Then stop right there. $268,000 a year is a lot of money or not?
[00:35:53] Imani: It is a lot of money.
[00:35:55] Ramit: All right.
[00:35:56] Imani: You are correct.
[00:35:57] Ramit: Okay.
[00:35:58] Imani: It’s less than we’ve had in the past, but yes, it is a lot of money.
[00:36:03] Ramit: Any kids living in the house?
[00:36:04] Imani: Yes. We have two sons that are actually adults, but they still live here.
[00:36:09] Ramit: How old?
[00:36:10] Imani: 20 and 25.
[00:36:13] Ramit: Okay, fine. All right. Let’s continue looking at the numbers here. Okay. I like we have a 401(k) contribution in here. Very nice. Fixed costs, Imani, what’s that number right there?
[00:36:26] Imani: It’s 83%. That is why I feel broke, and that is why I wrote in.
[00:36:34] Ramit: Yeah, that’s it right there. That’s the number that explains a lot of why you feel stressed out about money. That’s one reason, I think. Let’s keep going. Investments at 1%. And of course the 1% is a 529. A 529 for 20 year olds? What? What’s that about?
[00:36:53] Imani: Okay, it has been there for a long time, and I just haven’t stopped it.
[00:37:00] Ramit: Why don’t you do the same thing for your retirement?
[00:37:03] Imani: You’re right.
[00:37:05] Ramit: Like, oops, I tripped and fall and put $150 a month into my retire– how come nobody ever says that to me? All right. Saving’s at 7%. Okay. And we have 600 bucks is going towards an emergency fund. 400 bucks is something called separate savings. What’s that?
[00:37:30] Imani: Our separate savings accounts.
[00:37:31] Ramit: Okay. That’s like your individual money?
[00:37:34] Imani: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:35] Ramit: And then your guilt-free spending suggests it’s 9% or $1,400. I don’t believe that. Do you?
[00:37:43] Imani: I don’t believe that either, no.
[00:37:45] Ramit: It’s higher?
[00:37:46] Imani: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:37:47] Ramit: Where is the math not adding up?
[00:37:50] Imani: Michael has 10, 12 laptops.
[00:37:55] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? 12 laptops? For what?
[00:38:00] Michael: I’m a tech nerd. Do I need 10 laptops? No, I don’t. I would be perfectly fine with one laptop, send a role with none of my electronics right now at this point. I’ve got to the point now where I’ve been able to do what I want to do for so long. Just got me in trouble financially, I still have those assets that I could get rid of and recoup some of that and add back to that net worth.
[00:38:27] Ramit: All right, that’s interesting. Okay. So you’ve had a conversation about, could Michael sell some of his stuff? And Michael, sounds like you’re actually interested in pushing that net worth number up.
[00:38:38] Michael: Very much so.
[00:38:40] Imani: The math isn’t math-ing.
[00:38:44] Ramit: Oh, I have a feeling. It’s right here. $601,000 of debt. Can you tell me what’s in this debt?
[00:38:50] Imani: Yeah.
[00:38:51] Ramit: Actually, can I ask Michael that? Michael?
[00:38:53] Imani: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:55] Michael: So the mortgage is in there.
[00:38:57] Ramit: Mortgage is how much?
[00:38:58] Michael: I think right now it’s 295,000.
[00:39:02] Ramit: Okay.
[00:39:03] Imani: 298.
[00:39:04] Michael: 298? Yeah. Okay, 298. Okay.
[00:39:09] Ramit: What’s next, Michael?
[00:39:10] Michael: There’s a HELOC loan. It might be 50,000.
[00:39:15] Imani: The HELOC is 65.
[00:39:18] Ramit: Okay. From 50 to 65k. All right.
[00:39:21] Michael: Imani’s student loan.
[00:39:22] Ramit: Uh-huh.
[00:39:24] Michael: I think that’s 85,000. The automobiles. I would say 10,000 on a vehicle.
[00:39:31] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:32] Michael: I think Imani owes 35,000 on a vehicle.
[00:39:38] Ramit: Okay, 45k total. What else?
[00:39:40] Imani: The HELOC is 65.
[00:39:43] Ramit: Okay.
[00:39:43] Imani: My consumer debt, I have a 401(k) loan that’s 45.
[00:39:49] Ramit: Okay.
[00:39:50] Imani: I’m sorry. It’s not 45. It’s 37.
[00:39:53] Ramit: Okay.
[00:39:54] Imani: Then I also have credit card debt that’s about 11.
[00:40:01] Ramit: Okay.
[00:40:01] Imani: Michael, I think, has more– he’s got closer to 60 or 70.
[00:40:06] Ramit: All right. Let’s shoot for the stars. 70.
[00:40:08] Michael: Okay. Let’s say 70. Yes.
[00:40:11] Ramit: Okay. What do you think about all this debt?
[00:40:15] Imani: I’m embarrassed.
[00:40:16] Michael: It is terrible.
[00:40:18] Imani: I’m embarrassed. I know better. I know better. My debt was going back to school, and I totally changed careers. That’s the reason for my high salary. But I think the 401(k) loan was to consolidate. I did some things around the house. The HELOC includes a real estate investment that I made with someone. It’d be different if it was all travel or something like that.
[00:40:48] I feel like don’t see the tangible for all the debt. And I want to be able to go on a cruise or go to somewhere without having to put it on credit cards. And we’re not in that position. And I feel embarrassed because we have friends that can do that. I was talking to one of our mutual friends, the wife, and she was out of work.
[00:41:10] She was like, “Oh yeah, we have our savings and this and this and this.” And I’m thinking in the back of my mind. I’m like, “Good God. We would be in a mess. I’d have to like, cash out 401(k)s to make it work or take on two or three jobs to make up the stagger. And so I’m embarrassed at my big old age, being in this kind of debt.
[00:41:33] I don’t think debt is a problem if you’re doing an investment or something like that. But the stuff we have to show for it is frustrating and sad, and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight, to be honest.
[00:41:53] Ramit: All right. I appreciate the candor. I would be frustrated too if I was in my 50s and 60s, if I had a high income, and in fact used to have an even higher income. Where is it?
[00:42:11] Michael: Right.
[00:42:11] Ramit: Where’s the money? Yeah. And it can feel like insurmountable. It can feel frustrating and hopeless. If you’ll give me the time, I would like to understand a little bit more about how we got here, because when I start to understand that, hopefully we can figure out a plan to get out of here.
[00:42:32] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:32] Ramit: I don’t like seeing couples in debt. Certainly not in their 50s and 60s. So what do you say?
[00:42:39] Michael: Sure.
[00:42:40] Ramit: Imani, take me back to you as a child. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?
[00:42:48] Imani: My mama was always super good with money. She had a budget. She shopped with lists. The dynamic in the house, my mom controlled the finances. And I remember her saying one time that her– my parents got married young. They combined money. And my mom went in to get money, and my dad had spent her money, and she said that was it. They had separate accounts forever after that.
[00:43:18] My mama did not play that. Mama, very regimented with money. Sent me to private school. To me it was about the budget and about being responsible with money. So I feel like I know better and knew better.
[00:43:40] Ramit: What did she say to you about money?
[00:43:43] Imani: She talked a lot about saving. We had our savings accounts, and she would take us to deposit money. We could spend some, but we had to save some.
[00:43:54] Ramit: Great.
[00:43:54] Imani: It was always spend and save, spend and save. And we had our little bank books, and she got me my first credit card when I went off to college. She co-signed for it I used it responsibly initially. So she taught me a lot about writing down, buying stuff that you pay for, don’t carry a lot of debt. She paid cash for everything. She saved up.
[00:44:18] She took us on trips. For my graduation present from high school, she took us to the Bahamas, my sister and I, and her best friend and her daughter. For my 16th birthday, I went to Disney World. We took trips, and we had money, and she taught us to be responsible. And somewhere along the line, I got lost.
[00:44:43] Ramit: Talk to me about that. Where was it that you got lost?
[00:44:47] Imani: I think once I got married. I did pretty good with my finances when it was just me because I bought a condo when I was single. Bought my first condo. Bought my house. The first thing I bought with my first paycheck, I’ll never forget, was a sectional sofa and a coach bag.
[00:45:02] Ramit: Nice. How’d you feel?
[00:45:04] Imani: Oh, I felt great. I still have that coach bag. And my mother just got rid of that sectional sofa last year.
[00:45:10] Ramit: Wow.
[00:45:10] Imani: And I bought that in 1997.
[00:45:12] Ramit: Wow. Okay.
[00:45:13] Imani: I hold onto things.
[00:45:15] Ramit: What happened when you got married that caused your finances to deteriorate?
[00:45:20] Imani: I just didn’t stay as disciplined. I felt like because Michael was spending, I had to make it up, and I didn’t want the kids to have to want for anything. Wanted to get them all the things that they wanted or didn’t want, or I thought they should have. Wanted us to go on the trips. Michael was busy buying cars, and I’m trying to do all the other stuff. And so I was using my money to send the kids to camp and things like that. And so I felt like I lost the rigor and the discipline around money.
[00:45:57] Ramit: When did you realize you had a problem?
[00:45:59] Imani: It was several years ago. There’s another financial guru whose program we were trying to follow because I was like, “Oh, we’ll get out of debt, and it’ll be great.”
[00:46:10] Ramit: Wait, who is it, just so we know?
[00:46:11] Imani: Dave Ramsey.
[00:46:14] Ramit: I’m happy that anyone goes on any financial journey as long as they end up at the right place. So you’re welcome here. All right. So what happened when you started under that plan?
[00:46:23] Imani: So I couldn’t get Michael to go in with me. Having Michael stick to a budget felt like pulling teeth, and it was work for me, because the kids were young. So we were working shifts. I think I was on second. He was on third. So we were shift passing the night. We had a baby or a toddler and a elementary schooler, and so it was a lot to manage.
[00:46:53] Ramit: Hmm.
[00:46:54] Imani: Every day I wake up, I’m like, “Man, if we’d have followed it back then, we would’ve been debt free and living our best life.” All the baby steps and all that stuff. And we’re still on baby step number zero.
[Narration]
[00:47:10] Ramit: I am struck by how Imani describes her relationship with money. She said it used to be good when it was just me, then it was us. I suspect what’s behind that is they’ve never had a series of substantive conversations about their relationship and money.
[00:47:29] Like many couples, they probably just slipped into it– dating, living together, kids, jobs– without ever stopping to establish plans and then to recalibrate them. And now they’re surprised it’s not working.
[00:47:42] Relationships don’t run on autopilot, but most of us just slide right into some of life’s most important decisions. Where should we live? If we have kids, what kind of parents do we want to be? How much money should we save, and why? Most couples don’t actually talk about these things. Believe it or not, most of us just coast until something goes wrong. So it starts to feel like you are constantly reacting to life because you actually are.
[00:48:09] Let’s talk about the deeper issue. One partner grows; the other partner does not. Imani is clearly into personal growth. Remember she said earlier she has dragged Michael to several coaches to tackle the very issue she wanted to talk about. She’s clearly ambitious. She changed careers later in life. So the hard question becomes, have you outgrown your partner?
[00:48:35] This is an uncomfortable conversation, but it’s very real, and there’s actual data to back it up. A major Swedish study found that after bariatric surgery designed to help people lose significant weight, married people were more likely to get divorced. Another study showed that women who won the lottery were more likely to end their marriages shortly after.
[00:48:54] This is one of the reasons that when I was dating, one of the top three things I was looking for was someone who was into self-development. I knew I was, and I knew that over the course of my life I would change, and I would grow. And I wanted someone who already had built that into their own life.
[00:49:10] And once you start growing, you want your partner to grow too. And I see it all the time. The person who has finally learned about money, they start offering advice to their partner, and they get increasingly frustrated that their partner just ignores it. But be honest and think back to three years ago, five years ago. If someone had told you then, “You got to use a CSP. You got to automate your finances.” You probably would’ve rolled your eyes too.
[00:49:31] That is the side of personal development that very few people talk about. You can grow faster than your partner, and they may never develop the same interest that you did. So what do you do? Have you talked about it? Not hinted, not fought. I mean a series of real honest conversations about how your life is changing and what it means for your relationship. Why it’s important to you.
[00:49:56] If this sounds familiar, if you are feeling something right now in your chest or in your stomach and you’re going, “Oh my God, I think that might be me.” I want to encourage you to join my money coaching program. It is designed to help couples like you stop spinning in circles, stop feeling like you have a wedge between you, and actually start building a life together.
[00:50:19] Here’s why it works. Money coaching does not just focus on the numbers, although we will help you understand your own finances. We dive into this psychology behind your financial decisions and the dynamics of your relationships. You’re going to learn how to have actual productive conversations, how to align on your goals, even if you see things differently, and how to create a plan that works for both of you.
[00:50:41] Plus, you’ll have personal access to me during monthly coaching calls and a supportive community to hold you accountable. Imagine just having at least one hour a month where the two of you are talking about money in a guided format. Now you can come solo, or you can bring your partner to the program. Either way, I know that it’s going to help you. So if you are ready to start building your Rich Life together, join Money Coaching. You can sign up at iwt.com/moneycoaching. I’ll put the link in the description below as well.
[Interview]
[00:51:15] Ramit: Does it feel hopeless now? Like, we didn’t follow it 20 years ago, so it’s pointless to even start now.
[00:51:21] Imani: No, no. Definitely not pointless. As long as you have breath in your body and air in your lungs– air in your lungs and in life, no, there’s always tomorrow. The best time to start is now. And we’re not as far behind. Again, listening at all the people that you’ve talked to on your podcast, I’m like, ooh, we not in that bad a seat.
[00:51:41] There’s a way to turn this around. We just got to both be willing to do it because I am tired. I’m tired of being the one to feel like I’m– I feel like I’m pulling him. I feel like I’m pulling Michael all the time, and I am tired. And I want Michael to retire. I don’t want him to have to keep working forever. I want us to be like, “Oh, let’s go. Let’s take a sabbatical. I want to go frolic around Europe, right? I want to go do all those things.”
[00:52:15] Ramit: Michael, are you surprised hearing Imani share this?
[00:52:21] Michael: No. We’ve discussed it before, probably not to this level, but I can sense the frustration. And I remember when she told me, “Hey, we’re going to be doing this with Ramit. I was actually relieved.
[00:52:44] Ramit: That actually doesn’t surprise me though, Michael. It doesn’t surprise me because this is yet one more way of delegating work from you to somebody else. In this case, me. Do you want somebody to just tell you what to do with the money?
[00:52:57] Michael: I’m looking for advice.
[00:52:59] Ramit: Great. I love that.
[00:53:01] Michael: I’m not looking for anybody to do the work.
[00:53:02] Ramit: Love it.
[00:53:02] Michael: I’ll put the work in. You just tell me which direction I need to be going in.
[00:53:05] Ramit: Beautiful. You’re here to play ball. I’m here. That’s great. That’s what I want to see.
[00:53:10] Michael: This is my vision or my goal, is to link or connect with someone that I can trust to manage the money and make sure that it goes in the right places. That it has some element of debt reduction, but at the same time some element of investment– where as you’re reducing debt, your net worth is increasing. Like a money manager that manages your household finances.
[00:53:52] Ramit: You want someone who will reduce your debt, increase your net worth, and you stay pretty hands off.
[00:54:00] Michael: No, I will monitor it, but somebody that knows a lot more about investing money, somebody that knows a lot more about what’s the best way to reduce a X number amount of debt. I don’t have that knowledge to do that.
[00:54:15] Ramit: Now let me ask you, Michael, because you all spoke to at least one money coach, if not more. Presumably they talk to you about debt. What happened as a result of that?
[00:54:27] Michael: I would say that I didn’t have the discipline and rigor to stick with it.
[00:54:31] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Do you now?
[00:54:32] Michael: Yeah, yeah. Because it’s affecting my wife. And I can see that it’s affecting her.
[00:54:37] Ramit: What about you?
[00:54:38] Michael: Me? Oh yeah, definitely. And I know we’re going to get to this, but my Rich Life right now is if I could sell everything I have and sit in a room with just a book and a Mai Tai, that would be my Rich Life.
[00:54:55] Ramit: What? Really? I never heard that on this podcast. It makes my life so easy. Is this for real?
[00:55:02] Michael: Yeah, I’m serious.
[00:55:03] Ramit: What the hell? Hold on. Turn that camera around for a second. Show me what’s in this room right now.
[00:55:08] Michael: So right now I’m remote. I work remote.
[00:55:11] Ramit: Oh, okay. Will you send me a picture of the 10 laptops and all that stuff?
[00:55:16] Michael: Yeah. And more. Like you say, you’ll be like, what the [Bleep]?
[00:55:21] Ramit: Okay. Boom. I love that.
[00:55:22] Michael: Right.
[00:55:23] Ramit: I hope you shock me. All right. That’s good.
[00:55:25] Michael: Yeah. When you say assets, I think there’s more there than what that figure shows, just on what I have in the household.
[00:55:36] Ramit: Like computers and stuff?
[00:55:37] Michael: Computers. One time I was heavy into music, so I have some pieces. You would think that electronics–
[00:55:47] Ramit: Imani, any surprises hearing what Michael just told us?
[00:55:53] Imani: Absolutely. I said, what the [Bleep] too, just like you did.
[00:55:57] Ramit: What surprised you?
[00:56:01] Imani: Michael’s saying if he could sit in a room with just a book. I absolutely do not believe it. I absolutely do not. Unless something changed in the last couple of weeks, I don’t believe it. Because to me, the way you spend your money is what you value. And I get being a tech head. I understand wanting to have a hobby. I do. I get it. Because there are things that I like.
[00:56:27] I love Converse sneakers. I have 20 pairs. But Converse don’t cost $1,000 a pop. And so I understand that Michael is concerned about me packing up and leaving. He says stuff like, “You going to put me out?” It has crossed my mind a time or three or four or five.
[00:56:52] Ramit: Hold on, hold on. Is this a joke, or is this serious?
[00:56:54] Imani: No, I’m serious.
[00:56:56] Ramit: Okay.
[00:56:58] Imani: We’ve had that conversation, and he’ll say that.
[00:57:02] Ramit: I don’t joke about divorce with my wife ever. Never, ever. I just want to understand, has this joke gone on for a long time? Is there a cultural thing that I’m missing here? Because I also don’t know any Indian couples that joke about ever, and I just want to understand. Because this to me is quite serious.
[00:57:31] Michael: That’s interesting. I think part of it is cultural. Wouldn’t you say, Imani?
[00:57:41] Imani: Maybe. For me, we’re joking most of the time, but Michael, there are times where I’m serious. There was a time, one time where I considered taking my purse, and my keys, and our youngest son and walking out.
[00:58:00] Michael: I could see that. I could see that. I knew that it was getting to that point.
[00:58:06] Ramit: Okay.
[00:58:07] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:08] Ramit: Okay. All right.
[00:58:09] Imani: Which is why I wrote in.
[00:58:11] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:11] Ramit: Okay. It’s serious. All right. We all agree something big has to change.
[00:58:18] Michael: Yeah.
[00:58:19] Ramit: Perfect. Okay. Michael, are you at all worried about not being able to retire?
[00:58:25] Michael: I would be remiss if I say that I wasn’t. Realistically, do I think I ever retire? I would say as far as full-time work, yes. Moving away from full-time working and going into consulting. Because at this point in my career, as long as I’ve been certified in it, I would say that I’m at a certain level of mastery for what I do.
[00:58:55] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:56] Michael: So based on my experiences and my education, the different Fortune 500 companies that I work for, I believe there will always be consultant work for me to do.
[00:59:06] Ramit: Okay. All right. Do you believe that you’ll die with your debt?
[00:59:10] Michael: My goal is not to. Is it a realistic goal? It’s going to be a stretch.
[00:59:19] Ramit: Hmm.
[00:59:20] Michael: So if I look at my current savings and my 401(k)s, if I stay on that trajectory in my 401(k)s, they will exceed my debt that I currently carry. My main concern is, what do I leave my family?
[00:59:54] Ramit: No. Many people, especially men, they see themselves as a provider, and they will often– first they start off by taking on work so they can provide for their family. They might be earning good money. They spend a lot of money sometimes too. They’re not often tightly interwoven with the finances. That’s what’s happened here.
[01:00:17] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:18] Ramit: Maybe they rack up debt, maybe not. But eventually, when I ask them questions about their own financial situation, they often appear relatively nonchalant. Ah, it’s okay. I’ll be fine. I can consult, etc. But the thing I care about is passing it on to my kids. I’m actually concerned about the fact that you’re passing on an example that it’s okay to be in tons of debt. You could give them a big, old cheque. They’ll just burn it like you’ve burned it.
[01:00:45] Michael: Hmm. Good point.
[01:00:47] Ramit: So the most valuable thing, in my opinion, you could pass on would not be 25,000 or $250,000, but rather an example of what it looks like to be effective with money. To me, that is generational wealth first. How does that strike you?
[01:01:06] Michael: I think it is point on.
[01:01:09] Ramit: Michael, your answer was, in my opinion, not particularly inspiring and not a great answer. Because I was like, “Are you concerned about not being able to retire?” You were like, “I’ll be able to work. What I’m concerned about is like giving something to my kids.” I’m like, “Wait, so we just skipped over from you being in your 60s to dying.” What about the rest of your life? No joy, no travel, no nothing. Huh?
[01:01:32] Michael: Yeah, I would like to travel to some of these–
[01:01:35] Ramit: Where? Where’s the money coming from?
[01:01:37] Michael: Yeah, that part.
[01:01:40] Ramit: That far?
[01:01:40] Michael: That part right there.
[01:01:41] Ramit: All right, all right. So there’s problems here.
[01:01:44] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:01:45] Ramit: Okay. And just to summarize what I saw, we have, since childhood, no talking about money.
[01:01:53] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:01:55] Ramit: Developmental years, in your teens and 20s and 30s, it was like somebody else basically handled for me, whatever money I made. Maybe I’m saving a little, but I’m spending a lot. Enter the civilian world, and just spending a ton of money. After 20, 30 years, I have tons of debt in a very complex system that does not make it easy to talk about it. By the way, I also don’t really talk to my wife about these numbers.
[01:02:20] Michael: Mm.
[01:02:22] Ramit: Okay.
[01:02:23] Michael: Yes.
[01:02:23] Ramit: All right. Imani, I’m curious. You mentioned wanting to travel. You mentioned things like a sabbatical. I wonder for a second if you can just tell me, like– I bet you’ve thought about your Rich Life. What is it?
[01:02:39] Imani: Absolutely. It is going to Europe for three months at a time or going to an island. Just say, “Hey, guys. Let’s go. go spend time frolicking.” I want to go frolic. I have worked hard, damn hard. Went back to school in my 40s with two kids and a full-time job, and a husband and a household. Went back to law school, and did that.
[01:03:10] Ramit: Damn.
[01:03:11] Imani: And switched careers. I did that in 2015 to 2019.
[01:03:16] Ramit: That is insane. Congratulations.
[01:03:19] Imani: Thank you. So I’m no stranger to hard work. But when I envisioned my life as a child, at this point, I would be wealthy. I’d be able to own my time and not be a slave and have on golden handcuffs. I want my investments to work for me, and I want to go and travel to all the places and go to the premieres. I want to go to [Inaudible] and to Martha’s Vineyard and all those things. I want to do the bougie people stuff.
[01:03:56] Ramit: All right. I hear you. I like that. What I especially like is that you’ve come on a journey, and I like that you have a vision. It’s obvious you’ve thought about this, which I could tell it’s exciting to you. It gets me excited. Michael, how do you feel hearing that?
[01:04:13] Michael: Well, I’m excited for her.
[01:04:15] Ramit: Okay.
[01:04:16] Michael: I think that’s a worthy goal.
[01:04:19] Ramit: All right.
[01:04:19] Michael: She’s worked hard, and I think she deserves that.
[01:04:22] Ramit: And do you want to go to some of those places too?
[01:04:26] Michael: Sure. I traveled early in life. Before I was 30 years old, had lived in three different foreign countries.
[01:04:38] Ramit: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:39] Michael: So I saw a lot of the world.
[01:04:41] Ramit: Did you see it with Imani?
[01:04:44] Michael: No, this was before we met. This was when I was in the military. I did a little trouble after I got out of the military. I think she deserves the opportunity to be able to do that because I got to do it on [Inaudible].
[01:04:59] Ramit: Yeah. Michael, what’s your Rich Life?
[01:05:04] Michael: My Rich Life is to declutter, get some rid of some of the material things that I have.
[01:05:14] Ramit: I don’t believe you.
[01:05:16] Michael: I’m serious. I’m so done with it.
[01:05:20] Ramit: Okay. If this is true– maybe I’m wrong– when was the last time you did a semi-serious declutter?
[01:05:29] Michael: Ooh. I think we’ve done two in the garage. We actually paid somebody to come in and assist us, and it didn’t stick.
[01:05:40] Ramit: So your Rich Life is to declutter.
[01:05:46] Michael: Declutter, get rid of this debt.
[01:05:52] Ramit: Okay.
[01:05:53] Michael: And just have simplified life. Just really have a simple life. I have more than I deserve.
[01:06:01] Ramit: Okay. I’m going to help you come up with an even more powerful vision of a Rich Life. Imani, I see you nodding over there. How come?
[01:06:14] Imani: Because I feel like everything that he says, I don’t know if it’s because he’s looking at the effect of things on me. I want Michael to have a vision of his Rich Life. You talked about, I want to travel and all that, and he didn’t say that. And so for me, it feels like he’s like, “Oh, I’ve lived my life, and I’ve traveled the world. You go do that by yourself.”
[01:06:38] And I don’t want to do life by myself. If I want to do life by myself, then I’ll just go do life by myself. I wouldn’t have wrote into this program. I would’ve just said, “You know what? I’m over it.” I’d have cashed out of my 401(k), off my debt, take my children, and just go.
[Narration]
[01:06:57] Ramit: Wow, hearing the contrast between their Rich Life visions is honestly heartbreaking, and the layers here are striking. Michael and Imani’s vastly different experiences with money growing up and how they manage it today, and mostly how they envision their futures. I see a generational issue here as well.
[01:07:17] Michael’s backstory reveals an upbringing that did not encourage him to dream beyond survival. It was earning an income, landing on his feet. And I want to account for his background, but I also don’t want to let it distract from the larger issue. Another striking layer here is the prototypical gender dynamics at play.
[01:07:36] Imani, she’s got this bold, vibrant vision of travel adventure, a Rich Life full of wants, things that she wants to see. Meanwhile, Michael’s dream is solitary, a book, a Mai Tai, and leaving money for the kids. Personally, as a man in my 40s who has seen other men shrink and increasingly not want to hang out with friends, increasingly only talk about things like a man cave, and even say things like, “I hate people. I don’t really want to hang around anybody anymore.” This leaves me really sad and disconnected.
[01:08:09] I am urgently fighting against that. I’m creating guys trips. I’m trying to hang with more friends. And from Imani’s perspective, if that were my partner, it would honestly make me feel hopeless. And to make matters even more frustrating, he seems to be responsive to another man’s advice, but not his own wife’s.
[01:08:28] Imani has said point blank, she’s considering leaving, and I believe her. If you can’t even agree on what a Rich Life looks like by this point in life, what are the chances they can actually make the huge changes needed?
[01:08:40] We are going to answer that question in a very surprising part two next week. Not only are we going to finish this conversation, but I sent Imani and Michael away and had them come back with actual changes, and you are going to see what happens. Specifically, where I shared some actual scenarios from our partners at Facet around exactly what they need to do if they want to reach their retirement goals. Will they do it? Will they even come back? What surprising things will they have done? Trust me, you will not want to miss next week’s part two.
[01:09:20] Facet is an SEC-registered Investment Advisor. Investing involves serious risk, and past performance is not a guarantee of future performance or success. I’m not a member of Facet. I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. My opinions are included and should not be interpreted as a recommendation or research regarding any investment or investment strategy, legal or tax advice.
